Fornovocate - to refight the Battle of Fornovo multiple times to see if the historical result was the most likely and to gain a better understanding of the battle.
As a refresher for how Game #1 played out, please visit Battle of Fornovo.
Once the battle lines are drawn, the battlefield and the commands look like,
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| Initial deployments |
For the Italians, Ray takes overall command as Gonzaga, Lee commands de Montone's Left Wing, and Surjit commands Caiazzo's Right Wing. The Italians may place one unit on each of the three fords. The Italians hold initiative on Turn 1 and receive the first impulse.
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| The Swiss, ready to rumble. |
On to battle!
The Italians begin by sending each of their heavy infantry units into the Taro River. As Gonzaga's (Ray's) pike block emerges from the central ford, de Gie strikes. While his two guns pound Gonzaga's infantry, the bombardment results in only disordering the Italian formation. Crossbow move up to harass the enemy's crossing. Caiazzo (Surjit) counters by forcing de Gie's mounted crossbowmen back from the rightmost ford while Caiazzo's Stradiot's harass de Gie's skirmishers.
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| Italian heavy infantry take to the river first. |
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| The French contest the crossings. |
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| de Gie's light cavalry falls back when pressed. |
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| Stradiots harass enemy skirmishers. |
Seeing little opposition at the Taro River, the Italians emerge from all three crossing points and establish bridgeheads across the rising Taro. Confident, Gonzaga sends his pikemen to take the gun to his front. The gun, however, is supported by the King and his Gendarmes. No matter. The pikemen send the King and his heavy cavalry to the rear as the gun is overrun and destroyed. In a similar result, Caiazzo's Stradiots attack de Gie's light cavalry and the French horsemen are forced back taking the crossbow skirmishers with them. Hit from behind by Stradiots, French skirmishers near the river are scattered. This is not a good start for the King!
As a note, Chris, could not hit the broad side of a barn in these early clashes. Even the Italians were encouraging Chris to get at least some success. I asked Chris if he would like me to roll some dice in his place. He declined saying that he will stick with the dice he brought to battle regardless. Courage!  |
| Italian infantry cross the Taro in strength. |
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Gonzaga's infantry storm into battle.
The French gun is destroyed and the King retreats. |
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French skirmishers are destroyed
and French light cavalry falls back. |
Encouraged by these early results, Caiazzo attacks with his light cavalry. Stradiots attack the remaining French gun and his mounted crossbow charge in against de Gie's mounted crossbow. Both of these attacks are repulsed without much loss. |
| Italian light cavalry charge the guns... |
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| and French light cavalry. |
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| Both attacks are repulsed! |
Back on the Italian Left, de Montone brings his heavy infantry across the ford and immediately comes under fire from French skirmishers. As the King's infantry moves off road, they turn to confront the enemy. The King moves up his cavalry positioned on the right. With the ford clear, de Montone's Men-at-Arms (MAA) cross over to the opposite bank in support. |
| de Montone comes under fire... |
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| as he works to establish a bridgehead on the opposite bank. |
With disruptive skirmisher shooting, French Gendarmes charge into de Montone's MAA. In a completely unexpected and uncharacteristic turn of events, Chris throws six sixes and scores five hits. Crippled in the melee, de Montone's MAA retreat back across the Taro.  |
| French Gendarmes charge in! |
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| It's a miracle! |
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| de Montone's MAA flee back across the Taro. |
Perhaps emboldened by this unexpected success, the King presses on and charges into Gonzaga's pike block at the head of his own Gendarmes. |
| Flushed with success, Charles VIII charges in! |
Success is short-lived as is the King. The attack against Gonzaga's infantry goes badly. The King and his Gendarmes recoil back heading for the rear. This retreat offers no safe haven. Stradiots ride over the remaining French gun and strike the King's bodyguard from the rear. The pride of France scatters and the King lays on the field dead. |
| The King's attack is repulsed... |
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| and he is hunted down and killed! |
Seeing their King fall, the remaining French vow to fight on. Despite their desperate attempts to turn back the enemy, the French mixed formations seem to have lost the will to fight. Attacks and counterattacks find the French losing these battles of attrition as the French ranks are depleted.  |
| Italian heavy infantry press on... |
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| while the French try to hold on. |
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| French attempts are in vain as they are pushed back... |
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| and their ranks depleted. |
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| Situation near end of battle. |
With the French Right collapsing under the weight of Gonzaga and de Montone's sustained attacks, the two French wings are split. Caiazzo presses his attempt to destroy de Gie. With enemy light cavalry now roaming freely in the French rear, the battle is lost. Now it is every Frenchman for himself!
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| Caiazzo pushes on! |
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| As Caiazzo is reinforced, de Gie crumbles. |
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| Italian horsemen loose in the French rear! |
Magnificent victory for Gonzaga and his army!
Congratulations to Ray, Lee, and Surjit for a well-played battle. Despite losing the battle, Chris put up a good fight given some of the worst die rolling seen. Still, this contest was very entertaining and great fun to watch unfold. Even Chris' enemies were rooting for him to succeed. Nevertheless, he took this defeat in stride and all in good humor.
This battle was the first attempt at a cross-group game where one group (Rejects) commanded one army and non-Reject Chris commanded the other. Unfortunately, Chris' planned gaming partner could not make the game so Chris was forced to press on alone. He did so admirably.
Great job fellas and so much fun! Thank you!
The next round of Fornovocating is on Tuesday with a different group of five players.
A great review of a great game. I think Chris has earned 'Honorary Reject' after all those bad dice rolls. 🤣
ReplyDeleteThank you, Lee! It was a very fun game and Chris took all in stride.
DeleteYes, great game report. Despite the luck, or seeming lack of it, I had a great laugh. And the Rejects' victory wasn't down to luck. I don't think they put a foot wrong. First time I have had opponents wishing me luck on a dice roll! Gents, all three of them. Well done Ray, Surjit and Lee.
ReplyDeleteChris, we all had a good laugh and it was not all at your expense. Very enjoyable game enhanced by seeing The Rejects rallying around you in a vain attempt to change your luck. Your one bit of glory was your cavalry charge into Lee's MAA. As some would say, "epic"! I would say, "devastating"!
DeleteA gripping report - nice pictures too. There is word afoot (can you have a word afoot?) that King Charles chose to die on the field rather than face embarrassing questions. The word goes on to explain that he tried to commit suicide, but missed.
ReplyDeleteGlad you enjoyed the report, Tony! You may be quite right about the King's attempt at suicide. Given Chris' luck, not even that could have been expected to succeed. We laughed, we cried...
DeleteGreat report;'' Fornovocating" somehow brings images of Roman Emperor Caligula to mind! :-)
ReplyDeleteThank you! When I wrote this, I wondered if I might attract any bots...
DeleteGreat looking game Jonathan!
ReplyDeleteThanks, Michal!
DeleteThe Rejects always make for an entertaining game. Good on Chris for sticking with his dice. There is nothing more dispiriting than when your opponent starts expressing sympathy for your dice rolling.
ReplyDeleteThey sure do! Great bunch of guys to have a game with. Rather than fall into despair, Chris accepted his poor die rolling and we had a terrific time, nonetheless.
DeleteMighty fed up to have missed this. Well done Chris for preserving our honour.
ReplyDeleteI relayed your plight and they all agreed that there will be plenty of opportunities for cross-group rivalries in the future. Chris could have used your good dice throwing, though.
DeleteJonathan, I do wonder (poor dice aside) whether the scenario favours the Italians; I commented previously on my concerns over the preponderance of Italian pike this early in the wars. Here, they are used to secure fords in advance of the cavalry.
ReplyDeleteSound tactics from the players, but it does make me wonder when looking at the historical battle; here it was the MAA that led, the infantry being (rightly or wrongly) looked down on and considered poor, especially in contrast to the Swiss. Despised almost.
The Stradiots and LC seem more disciplined than their historical counterparts, being instrumental in defeating Gens d'Arms. IRL, the baggage was too tempting for these undisciplined troops.
However, I think the main difference is that the Italians are much less constrained in acting in consort; IRL the C&C on the allied side is what made the plan fall apart. There was a lot more standing and watching; partly due to the numbers of mercenaries (why risk your money making troops?) but also due to rivalry. Milan, Venice and the Papacy had no reason to trust each other and I suspect it was a case of "after you" and " no, you first" when it came to getting stuck in. After all if your "ally" suffered greater losses it put you in a better position once the foreigners had been dealt with....
The weather put the final touch to an ambitious plan.
I suspect the only way to reflect the battle are victory conditions for preserving your troops or similar; unfortunately, not something that leads to an enjoyable game. The best compromise is perhaps to have the more cautious or less experienced players on the Italian side.
Please don't take this as criticism of your games; I think it's more about the difficulties in recreating historical battles - do you aim to reflect the results of the historical battle? Or do you aim for an enjoyable game? Do you shift the balance to ensure both sides can win, and if so how far do you go away from the historical battle?
I seem to recall the P&S Society had it as a battle theme in an old Arquebusier. Somewhere I have De Commines(?) account; will need to dig them out.
Neil
Excellent commentary, Neil, and perfectly appropriate. I take no offense in any way and I welcome feedback such as yours. In fact, for next week's game (Game #4), I have made a few adjustments based upon your and Brian's comments in the Game #1 battle report. The Italian pike have been downgraded a bit and their numbers reduced. Since Brian will be commanding one of the Italian Wings, he may regret those decisions! I did not make these adjustments for Game #3 since the Battle Briefings had already been sent out to the players. Does the scenario favor the Italians? Perhaps but I think I need more trials. Game #1 was quite close and hung in balance. Game #2 was a major French victory with The League's Army completely destroyed, and you see how Game #3 came out as an Italian victory. I must add that Ray, Lee, and Surjit are seasoned gamers and play a very good game. Note Chris' comment above that he thought they made no mistakes.
DeleteI did not produce a battle report from Game #2 in which I played F2F with a friend. With me leading the French and he the Italians, the French absolutely smashed any hope of an Italian victory. Every ford was contested and by battle's end, most of what remained of the Italian Army was still on the wrong side of the Taro having never crossed or being driven back. For the French it was a complete victory. For the Italians, it was a complete disaster.
What do I want in a historical refight? I want the players to come away with a better understanding of the battle dynamics and why decisions were made. Remember that the historical outcome is but one data point. Even if the historical outcome ends up being the most likely, it is not the only outcome possible.
Even when fighting a historical battle, victory conditions can be set to allow a competitive contest. Perhaps with the notion of infighting, mistrust, and the need for self-preservation among the Italians, I ought to consider each Wing having its own Break Point rather than an overall Army Break Point? That amendment may change the dynamics toward something with which you would agree.
Please keep your thoughts coming and I would be very interested in seeing the Arquebusier article if you have it.
I'll stand by my comments on the Italian infantry though my colleagues may not appreciate them! I'd suggest that Italian MAA are rather inferior to French but it's a little more difficult to tell as they clearly had problems crossing the Taro after the storm the previous night. I think one of the difficutlies of historical refights is the differences in various sources. The river seems to have been passable anywhere but there was clearly a huge amount of 'inertia' in the Italian force. I doubt that a good game would result if the difficulties of alliance warfare were represented though I recall a campaign game where the Italian allies enjoyed themselves hanging about on the flanks of the battlefield while the French and Spanish slogged it out in the centre. The result was that desired by the Italians - both French and Spanish were too weak to continue campaigning!
DeleteThanks, Brian! We will see if your perspective changes following the next game. In this scenario, the French Gendarmes are rated superior to the Italian MAA. I appreciate you weighing-in on bringing alliance/faction goals into the gaming equation.
DeleteA cracking game there full of drama and period colour, did it reflect historical reality who really knows. All one can do is play the rules in the spirit of what we can discern from what we read and have fun doing so. Love the new addition to the dictionary by the way.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Phil! Not sure how often we can work the new word into everyday language.
DeleteEnjoyable game and well fought victory to the Italians
ReplyDeleteThe game was very enjoyable and very well played by the Italians.
DeleteJon Good to see the collection getting another run out 👍
ReplyDeleteI agree! Great to see these armies out on the table for a long engagement.
DeleteDespite everything, Chris threw a fantastic six 6’s, he MUST do the lottery this weekend. :-)
ReplyDeleteYes, that one throw helped soften the numerous hard blows suffered.
DeleteFabulous looking game Jonathan. Lots of colour.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Mark!
DeleteGood comments from Neil above. I did think reading through that the Italian infantry were capable of too much aggressive action. We've already discussed previously whether they should be pikes but there is little doubt on the day they didn't fight well. As traditional among the Italians, the strike force was the heavy cavalry with the new (and still developing) light cavalry arm. Perhaps the current rating of the infantry makes players too comfortable leaning on them?
ReplyDeleteAnother thing is , so far, the Italian light cavalry have been well behaved and engaged with the battle lines. In reality, they made a bee-line for the baggage. We can debate how much this was lack of control and how much was a plan (the loss of baggage operationally crippled the French - they may have won through but they weren't a functional army after the battle) but that's what they did. Do there need to be game incentives for attacking the baggage? Enjoying the reports, especially as its making me think more about the battle itself and the state of Italian armies in this early period of the Italian Wars.
I agree that Neil’s contributions are most thoughtful. Isn’t thoughtful contemplation one reason to refight historical battles? I learn a lot from refighting these battles and from the discussion that often follows the battle reports.
DeleteThe Italian light cavalry have not been used as battle cavalry in any of the three games. In the games for which I provided battle reports, in Game #1, de Gie (David) complained that they were like a swarm of wasps harassing his command. In Game #3, the light cavalry took up a role of harassment again and targeted French light troops and isolated artillery. Yes, they attacked the King and his Gendarmes but that was only after the King was in flight and exposed his back to the enemy.
The Italian infantry may have performed poorly historically, but was that performance preordained? Perhaps command had a hand in this performance? By placing players into these roles, while we can constrict them, their decisions should generate the narrative such that history does not completely straitjacket their decisions. The historical outcome was perhaps not the only possible outcome on the day of battle. For Game #4, the Italian infantry will see a modest downgrade. Perhaps adjusting the Army Break Point for one or both armies is called for as well? As for attacking the baggage, I have no baggage to attack! Given lack of a baggage train, would you suggest removing the Italian light cavalry on the French side of the Taro from the battle altogether?
Good discussion, Anthony. Thank you!
I take solace in that some are reading the battle report and giving it thought.
Well, I'm glad you are finding the comments helpful. I wouldn't want to over limit the commanders but they may wish to do things the Italian infantry weren't actually good at, like aggressive close assault. Notching down their combat ability is probably the way to go.
DeleteOn the Italian light cavalry, I think taking them away would make life to easy for the French. Historically, they passed by the French and fell on the baggage. But they could have done what you have them doing, so this makes the French have to respond to them rather getting a free pass to concentrate on the river. Shame about the baggage - I love a nicely modelled baggage train.
Incidentally, Neil mentions Commynes account. He was present on the day, so his words have impact. But he seems to overplay some things. He claims, for example, there was only 15 minutes of fighting but, given all the incidents we are aware of in the action, this makes little sense. A better estimate is his overall duration of one hour, which matches Italian accounts. It is worth reading Beneditti's account to get the Italian side. He too was there
https://deremilitari.org/2013/04/alessandro-beneditti-the-battle-of-fornovo-1495/
Comments are helpful, welcome, and give me much to consider. Thanks for providing the Benedetto link too. Now, about that baggage train…
DeleteHad you a baggage train I'd suggest a role to see if the Stradiots are distracted by the possibility of loot. And loss of the baggage train could reduce the French DV (?) to encourage them to protect it. These games are producing some interesting discussion as well.
DeleteI agree, Brian! sometimes the post-BatRep discussion is as interesting as the battle report. I may need to think about baggage trains.
DeleteAnthony's link is interesting - I'm assuming he was Venetian! (The commentator not Anthony!)
DeleteHave not managed to find the Arquebusier magazines; I think I know where they are but getting to them may take a while.
I was reading around things (looking for French archer uniforms) when I came across some info on the Italian infantry at the time of Fornovo. Apparently, while they fielded some pike, these were purely DEFENSIVE in role supporting crossbow in the same formation. They were not trained for the sort of offensive action carried out by the Swiss and their German imitators.
Neil
Neil, this is useful information on the Italian infantry. I need to think the "defensive" nature of the mixed Italian units in game terms and tactics. In this game, I field the French "pike" as a mix of pike and crossbow but not so for the Italians. If I had enough crossbow stands, I might consider doing this for the Italian blocks as well.
DeleteVery nice colourfull armies. I always loved the period and it's typical for your blog that you can represent the iconic aspects of the historical battle on the table. I still have to think about the tactics. But I love your representation. Will you ever show battles with a clock on the table again as you did for Mollwitz? Cheers, my friend!
ReplyDeleteGlad you enjoy the visual presentation as well as the battle narrative, itself. When I return to Napoleonics or SYW, the clock will likely reappear.
DeleteGreat looking game, the figures on show are really lovely. Chris battled hard but a good fought victory by the Rejects. Be interesting to see the next instalment.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Donnie! It will be very interesting to see the results of the next battle. Do players read these battle reports to help drive their own battle plans? I know that some do and some do not.
DeleteI do read it with excitement. Some aspects are worth to be used for own battles. I'm often thinking about how to make games more interesting for players and the photos easier to "read" for the followers of our blog.
DeleteVery good! Happy to see the battle reports provide some inspiration and thought.
DeleteGood on Chris for sticking with the cold dice. Between you and me (and now the rest of the world) I was secretly judgy when my guests asked for new dice. I have always cheerfully granted their request but I personally stick with the dice I picked, fate be damned. And I have probably lost my fair share of games because of it!
ReplyDeleteYeah, Chris stuck with his dice as far as I can tell. I do not mind players switching dice out during a game unless the switch is dependent upon what score they want to roll. You know, "these dice are my high rollers, these other dice are my low rollers."
DeleteI won't tolerate dice throwing especially if they are using mine!
Great looking game and I agree, all the post match discussion is very interesting too! I don't know BI at all but I assume it has different grades or quality of troops...it sounds like the Italians might need to be downgraded a bit? Perhaps random activation would recreate the lack of coordination on the Italian side EG if each command activated separately, with the chance the French might get an extra activation between one Italian command and another? Having the light cavalry test to avoid haring after the French baggage could be incorporated too...anything but a 6...and they take off! You could do something similar by forcing the Italians to test for any unit attempting to cross the river!
ReplyDeleteThanks! Yes, the post-game discussion is very interesting.
DeleteBI does have various troop grades and the Italian blocks are rated as militia. Commands are already activated randomly so coordination is difficult. Once the Taro rises significantly, all units attempting to cross must test for success. Interesting idea about the Stradiots disappearing to loot the baggage.
You should include the mounted crossbows with the stradiots in any looting test - they also joined in.
DeleteYes,if I go this path, the mounted crossbow would be included. I think it equally viable to keep these light cavalry in a blocking position to prevent the French from simply marching away.
DeleteThe use of the light cavalry is a good idea, certainly adds to the game. Do include a sack the camp mechanism for such units. They are definitely able to be the sand in the clockwork of the opponent.
DeleteI need to build a camp to sack!
DeleteSounds like you already have most things taken into consideration Jon! We used to play rules for both British Napoleonic cavalry and Royalist ECW cavalry who won a combat would automatically pursue and could only be stopped by rolling a 6.....
ReplyDeleteBI has a similar rule for pursuit as well. Impetuous units are compelled to attempt pursuit after a successful melee . If successful, off they go!
DeleteAnother excellent clash and some good discussion.
ReplyDeleteThank you, George!
DeleteGreat looking game and I feel for Chris, we've all been there! Sounds like it played well, I think I had the Italians not being too active because of that and the difficulty of crossing the Taro next to nothing happened so I think you're compromise is better, Warbases do some excellent inexpensive mdf wagons I used to expand my Italian wars baggage train, got to have somewhere for Charles pornografic woodcuts , which I thought you were referencing in your title!
ReplyDeleteBest Iain caveadsum1471
Thanks, Iain! Yes, Chris had a very tough day contending with his dice. I will check out MDF baggage trains. Good idea!
DeleteA great report of a great game, Jon. Chris was very unlucky with his dice, he did well hiding his frustration, but did let out a whoop of joy when he threw loads of 6's pushing Lee's cavalry back over the river.
ReplyDeleteSurj was right (I hate saying that), suggesting leading with our three pike units crossing the river first. Although mine took forever to cross and I only managed to get one more unit across after that. Great game!
Thanks, Ray! The game was very fun and well-played by your trio of Rejects. Chris is correct in saying you fellas made no missteps during play. Surjit’s leading with the pike has stirred up a bit of controversy as seen from a few comments.
DeleteIt certainly seems so?? I did give us a foothold on the other die or the river though, sending anything else across first could see them reeling back across blocking the river again. I'm didn't read up on the battle before our game, but common sense told me to send the light cavalry or skirmish infantry over first as they move faster, but they could (or should) be pushed back quickly. I didn't do it, but because it took me so long to get the large pike unit across the river, I was going to send my light cavalry over to our right and cross the river behind Surj's troops. In the end mine didn't even move!!
ReplyDeleteYour game strategy worked out well but I wonder if it could have withstood a more solid and effective defense by Chris?
DeleteYet another splendid looking and sounding game Jonathan…
ReplyDeleteYou must be doing something right because people are engaging with and talking about the game/games…
All the best. Aly
Thanks! I try, Aly, I try. Seeing a robust post-game discussion is very pleasing.
DeleteThat was a clever post title. 😀
ReplyDeleteThat really has to be some awfully terribly bad die rolling for the other side to start cheering you on.
Thanks! You’ll likely see the title again…
DeleteChris’ die rolling was really abysmal.
Another great game Jon and only just catching up on it now, owing to my Blogger issues and real life. Neil's comments are interesting to read and add food for thought when re-fighting this and other similar battles.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Steve! There have been some great comments that are causing the scenario to evolve. Great stuff!
Delete