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Thursday, October 22, 2026

Thoughts On Input/Output Uncertainty

With two games of Flower of Chivalry (FoC) under my belt and the sounds of battle still ringing in my ears after Richard’s latest practice game (see Flower of Chivalry Practice Game), I have been pondering the turn sequence.  Am I overthinking the rules’ design? Perhaps.  To the relief of some, there will be no machine learning techniques explained, probability distributions scrutinized, or simulation studies explored. Not this time, anyway.

Instead, I want to consider a simpler question.  Does the order in which we discover what our troops can do make a difference to the decisions we make?  More specifically, would a small change to the turn sequence give players a little more scope for planning without removing the uncertainty of command?

The turn sequence, as written, is:
  1. Check command.
  2. Resolve personal challenges.
  3. Choose Aggression Levels.
  4. Roll to determine accepted orders.
  5. Draw one Action Card to determine the number of actions available.
  6. Execute orders.
The player chooses an Aggression Level in step (3), but the results in steps (4) and (5) determine what that commitment actually allows.  First, will the desired order be accepted?  Second, will there be enough actions to carry it out?  That second question gave Ray and me something to consider during Richard’s game.  Choosing an aggressive posture is one thing.  Discovering afterward that orders are not obeyed and that the Battle lacks the actions needed to make much of it, anyway, is another.

Now, uncertainty is not necessarily a problem.  A commander should not expect everything to go according to plan.  The question is whether the uncertainty presents an interesting problem to solve or leaves too little opportunity to respond.  Does the second hurdle of the action-card draw add something useful, or does it simply compound the first hurdle of order acceptance?

A useful distinction here is between input and output uncertainty in game design.  The terminology is not as mysterious as it may sound.  Input uncertainty comes before a decision.  Discover resources available, assess the situation, and decide what to attempt.  Output uncertainty comes afterward.  Make the decision, then discover how events affect its execution.

In FoC, both the order roll and the action-card draw come after the choice of Aggression Level.  Having chosen an Aggression Level, the player receives a double dose of output uncertainty.  The intended order may not be accepted.  Even if it is, the number of actions available may leave the player unable to accomplish what was intended.  Output uncertainty is not inherently bad.  Deciding whether a plan is worth the risk can be an interesting command problem.  The existing sequence also rewards planning across several possible action-card draws.  There is a case for leaving things alone.

Still, I wonder whether both uncertainties need to follow the same commitment or single decision point.  On a poor turn, it can feel like stumbling twice on the way to the same destination.  My preference would be to reveal the action allowance before choosing Aggression Levels.  Let the player know the Battle’s capacity for the turn, then decide how ambitious to be.  A limited number of actions might suggest a limited effort.  A more generous number of actions might offer an opportunity to press forward.  Neither makes the decision automatic.  A good card need not make an attack wise, and a poor card may not make waiting sensible.  The enemy and the situation on the table still have something to say about that.

The proposed sequence would be:
  1. Check command.
  2. Resolve personal challenges.
  3. Draw one Action Card to determine the number of actions available.
  4. Choose Aggression Levels.
  5. Roll to determine accepted orders.
  6. Execute orders.
Move the action-card draw up in the sequence (from '5' to '3') ahead of choosing Aggression Level.  That is the extent of the change. The action-card distribution remains the same, as does the procedure for determining accepted orders.  Knowing the number of actions before choosing Aggression Level would not guarantee that the desired order is followed.

What changes is the problem facing the player.  Rather than choosing aggression and hoping sufficient actions appear, the player chooses aggression with the available actions in mind.  The focus shifts from anticipating capacity to adapting to it.  Would this make attacks easier to arrange?  Perhaps.  Would it encourage players to sit and wait for a better card?  Possibly.  Those are questions for another game, not conclusions to draw after two outings.

For now, I think it is worth a try.  Let the action-card draw define the problem the commander must solve.  Then let the order roll provide uncertainty over carrying out the solution.  To my mind, that retains enough command friction without asking both mechanisms to frustrate the same commitment.

48 comments:

  1. I’m not familiar with the rules. My question would be, what does the phase “Draw one Action Card to determine the number of actions available” seek to model? To my mind the answer to this question might help determine the sequence of turn phases.
    Chris/Nundanket

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    1. Good question, Chris! The Action Cards are an attempt to model command efficiency. Better commanders have a better action-card deck.

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    2. Thanks for the rapid response! I suppose that the player/commander should have an idea of that already. But whether an inefficient commander would be aware of his limitations? But 2: why would that level fluctuate? In later periods you might argue that a general’s staff might be tied up running errands etc then become available as they return etc, so that would make sense.
      Think overall I’d be inclined to agree with you. Be interesting to see what Richard thinks.
      Chris

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    3. Thanks, Chris. I reckon I already know what Richard thinks!

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  2. A larger, adjacent, point to this interesting point is how the construct of the phases in a turn can address a range of things. Specific to your suggestion, I personally, find that the fake friction mechanic has gone too far in many systems. Without knowing the details of this system, I would say that doubling the friction (accepted orders and also random activation numbers) would be too much. I'd look at dropping one of the two steps and seeing how it plays (accepting orders or action card). Just my four cents...

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    1. Thank you, Ed! I agree with your assessment of fake friction mechanisms. My games seem to bring up enough friction as it is without inserting even more friction mechanisms. For me, having both friction points affecting the same decision may be a bridge too far. Your four cents are always well received!

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  3. Jonathan,
    I am usually reluctant to change or meddle with a published set of rules unless I'm certain there has been a poor design choice. A good example is Strength & Honour which allows a barbarian warband to gain combat support factors from another such unit behind it. Given these represent bodies of 5-10,000 men I cannot see why they would give a combat bonus - morale possibly. I suspect it is done for game balance, that is to give barbarians more of a fighting chance in a two player game and to allow for a knife edge game.

    Looking at your proposals, I suspect you seek more control and what appears to be a more logical approach.
    What did the game designer have in mind?

    I can identify two types of game design. There is the "cerebral" where the player is free to make whatever moves he wishes (within the limits on troop types) and random / chance factors may frustrate this but are relatively minor - Volley & Bayonet and Command Decision are good examples of these types of rules.

    The other is the "gambler" where randomisation drives the game, usually rationalised as friction. Here the player has to make decisions each move based on the cards dealt or dice thrown - DBA etc or to some extent Commands and Colors.

    These are the extremes; most fall between the two - allowing a hand of cards to be held and choice made, rather than having to work with what is dealt.

    The former cerebral approach favours planners and those who prefer predictability, while the latter those who prefer to make decisions on the spur of the moment and prefer randomness absence of control.

    I guess you need to ask yourself, which are you?

    Neil

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    1. Excellent response, Neil! Where do I fall? Somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. Interestingly, I do not view Commands & Colors as a gambler's game, and I have played CCA more than any other game over the years. To me, CCA leans much more toward the cerebral end of the scale even though risk management is important.

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    2. Jonathan re CnC it's why I put "to some extent" it falls between the two extremes; in that the right card play at the correct time rewards planning, but available options are limited by the cards you are dealt.

      To look at another way; the cerebral set allows a player to mass offensive force on a chosen wing. Friction will only be imposed by morale / poor combat results or terrain effects, all of which can be factored in to the reckoning.

      By contrast, if you only get left wing or centre cards, or throw a low PIP score you are limited until the right wing card comes up or the dice allow you to move that wing.
      Some rules are even more random.

      For myself, I dislike both extremes; a set so random it means planning move by move and allows you to escape your mistakes. Or, a set so predictable the person who knows them best, wins or which are rather dull.

      Neil

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    3. Neil, I drop somewhere between the two extremes as well, but a lot depends on the game and game type. Generally, I am much more toward the cerebral end of the spectrum.

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  4. In the last game, I felt we lost the game on the turn of our action cards and the enemy won the game on the turn of their cards. We pulled a few 1 action cards which screwed up our plans and left us vulnerable, if we'd pulled a 3 action card on both those turns it would have been really advantages for us.
    But you're right it is a double wammy pulling a bad action then failing your order throw and standing when you wanted to charge of vice versa.
    But it did seem t work in Dan and Steve's favour, so are we looking at this coz we had our unfair share of bad luck?
    I think it would certainly change the way you play knowing the number of actions you have to play with before you choose your orders, It means you could plan more, even though the game is very random.
    I think we need Richard to say what he thinks or we might get the Plague next turn!!!!

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    1. Thanks, Ray! I am not looking at this based upon our run of bad luck in the game. I am looking at this topic from the angle of game design, types of randomness, and having two random events apply to a single decision point. I think we know where Richard stands and we still may get the Plague next turn!

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    2. Haha, he said it Rich, not me........?

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    3. Ah, but you let the genie (or is that virus?) out of the bottle first.

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  5. Little tweaks in rules can certainly add to the game and the proposal you have put forward certainly seems to be able to do that, Not seen or played the rules myself I can only go with what has happened in the games on Richard's blog but it would seem it would be well worth giving it a go.

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    1. Donnie, the change may be worth trying but I hoped to highlight the design elements embedded here and the ramifications of the present design. Everyone is at liberty to agree or disagree with my perspective and rationale.

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  6. It's a looooong time since I was familiar with these rules and far too long ago for me to assume what the designer's intentions / philosophy was.

    From our previous conversations on rules, I know you are not keen on double jeopardy and we are seeing that here in terms of 'chaos' or control loss. (is DJ something that is more jarring and obvious to the eye of a statistician?).

    I quite like chaos, I do much of my gaming solo, so in that situation I like it even more. In 'line them up and watch them go at each other' type periods (Hello wars of the Roses), sometimes the chaos rules are really needed to bring about more nuance in what might otherwise deteriorate into 'generic' battle.

    I am of course additionally biased because I like rules 'as written' and would likely just discard a set rather than tweak them!

    I suppose it depends at the end of the day whether the system is physically using or abstracting wing commanders, as they are there! where they are needed, to command and control on the General's behalf, so that a greater part of the army really is under command and control at any one time.

    To conclude and answer the question directly, I think I am the sort of gamer who would leave things well alone.

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    1. Thanks, Norm! I appreciate your thoughts on this topic. You are correct. I am not a fan of double jeopardy in a game. Where or not this trait is more obvious to some than others is a question for debate.

      As you mention your solo gaming, a solo gamer likely requires more chaos and uncertainty since there is no opponent by which to provide that stimuli. Besides, it can be difficult to either outsmart or surprise yourself! Richard enjoys solo gaming too so there may be a common thread there.

      This comment,
      "I am of course additionally biased because I like rules 'as written' and would likely just discard a set rather than tweak them!"
      is an interesting one coming from a rule's designer/developer. You are happy to continue modifying or tweaking your own rules but not someone else's rules.

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    2. I tend to resist changing rules designed by others, partly because I feel the designer 'obviously' knows their subject and that rules are written from the ground up and often tweaking one area compromises another and in any case might totally miss design intent. In my rules, something questionable might happen in 'A', but perhaps the design compensates for it in 'B'.

      Gamers often see and judge a rule in real world terms, when really it might be just part of the plumbing to make the maths under the bonnet work!

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    3. This is why design notes are important.

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  7. I agree with Norm and Neil in that I would prefer to discard a set of rules rather than tweak them. What tends to happen though is that we approach a new ruleset wanting to like them, and then discard them if after two or three games if we aren't enjoying them rather than actually analysing why, when in fact one or two tweaks could potentially save them.

    Your discussion immediately brought some recent games of Sharp Practice to mind. At times the game play becomes so uncontrollable it is almost like watching a story unfold where you only have a broad idea of what might happen. This is fine for a skirmish game and makes for a lot of fun and laughter, but I know I wouldn't enjoy the mechanics for much larger games.

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    1. Thanks, Lawrence. Rules warrant study to see what works and doesn't. I am fine adjusting commercial rules once I have worked out the math and interplay underlying them. My shelves are FULL of rulesets that held promise but simply did not work for me.

      I agree with your second paragraph and see this regularly in some game with lots of uncertainty. In these games, I feel like players have little to no agency in either the decision-making or outcomes.

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  8. An interesting post Jonathan. Not knowing the rules or having played the game will not stop me commenting even if I probably get it all wrong. 😂

    I see what you mean regarding the double jeopardy. I dislike rules where if you are hit with a run of bad luck you end up sitting around and watching the other side play.

    I guess FoC is modelling situations where orders were ignored and also where orders were acted upon but carried out poorly which is quite sensible but can occasionally make for a frustrating game, especially for a battle in a campaign setting.

    Is it possible to calculate the probability of everything going well vs ok vs disastrously?

    I am more into the gaming side of wargames as opposed to the simulation side so prefer rules that give both players some agency although I certainly like there being some friction somewhere in the rules to counteract the 1000 foot general syndrome.

    Anyway my 2c worth.... about US$0.01 😁

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    1. Thank you, Ben! Always good to read your thoughts no matter since the question is as generic as rules specific.

      I agree with you that players need agency in a wargame to make it interesting. For me, wargaming is all about decision making. Making meaningful and informed decisions. Could I compute the conditional probabilities? Probably but then I would be back in the realm of simulation which I stated at the beginning that I would avoid!

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  9. An interesting question there Jon, with some good and thoughful responses as always:). I think some designer notes might have helped to know the underlying intention with the rules mechanisms, something that Neil Thomas does very well. I like a certain maount of friction within my games, for very similar reasons to Norm but also to help reflect the inherent issues with C&C on say a WWII battlefield. But too much, a la Sharp Practice as cited above, and the game becomes to beholden to chance for my liking.

    So from my point of view, I think your suggested change of sequence has a lot of merit and is well worth giving a go.

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    1. Thanks, Steve! The comments are always interesting, insightful, and most welcome. I agree that NT’s design notes in Wargaming 19th Century is a fine example of explaining the thinking behind the rules. That book is among my favorites. I don’t care for too much friction either.

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  10. Not knowing the rules I wonder why they break the uncertainty into two steps. Is it to create a wider variety of results? Although as a player having placed orders then going through two steps to determine if they are carried out can add to the frustration, which may be good or bad depending on the player and the type of rules they enjoy.

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    1. Hi Peter, I can handle the two-step randomization. It is the positioning of these two elements back-to-back that, to me, is too much. Yes, friction cab be both good or bad depending on your preferences.

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  11. At first glance this looks like a prime example of what Neil Thomas calls "double counting" in that you two randomising activities in succession. I can guess at the designers intent, if you have a more competent commander, they are more likely to do what you want, but maybe not and maybe they won't get your orders in the first place. The change you are proposing is very minor but gives greater certainty which is probably more suited to a f2f game, whereas the original sequence is better for solo. I am an inveterate rules tinkerer, so do it and try it out. I cant imagine binning a rule set because you don't want to change them (!) but there isn't one correct way play wargames.

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    1. I agree that this is a case of double jeopardy. That is, penalizing a player twice for the same offense. I wrote about double jeopardy at length in an earlier post. Too much or too little friction can be in the eye of the player especially if the game is solo, F2F, or multiplayer. I am an inveterate rules tinkerer as well!

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  12. It sounds really interesting for your kind of gaming. I hope that you find a lot of inspiration and I'm looking forward to your next report.

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    1. Thank you! Next report will likely be back to Salem Church for yet another replay.

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  13. After many years of playing with artificial friction systems i came to the conclusion that the old +1 for morale is superior to anything that has come since. I am not familiar with the rules you mention, but it seems to me you are playing the system, rather than the opponent. Personally, i would just allow units to do what you want unless they are restricted by the usual morale/casualty problems. Then you can use your beautifully painted general figure to rally (or whatever) the unit that is not acting as you wish. Or, as i do now, use staff officers, the number of which are issued to generals depending on their level of skill. Appreciate that wont cure issues with these rules, but it works with everything Neil Thomas does!

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    1. Thanks for weighing in, Jeffers! Playing the system rather than the opponent describes this double dose of friction. In multiplayer games, I find that the players, themselves, create more than enough friction that the system needs not throw up any more.

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    2. Absolutely: if you want real friction, just add people!

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  14. I have played a lot of Flower of Chivalry and they are my standard rules for War of the Roses.

    I have never had a problem with the turn sequence and drawing an action card after you determine what orders your battle receives and what it then decides to do.

    I think that changing the order would make attacking and combat too effective. If you know you have 3 actions you know that can risk charging in as you will get 1 move and then 2 attacks. If you don’t manage to charge you could still shoot 3 times.

    The games as it stands requires taking a risk of closing with one action and then failing to melee and thus being open to a possible 3 attacks from your opponent.

    Taking this uncertainty and risk taking away would lessen the game’s excitement for me.

    We have never had a bad game of Flower of Chivalry - even when half my army ran away and my commander had to chase after them to get them back in the fight!

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    1. Mike, thanks for offering a counter-perspective to my own limited experience. Given that this is your standard ruleset for gaming the period, maybe you can tolerate a lot more chaos in your game engine than I?

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    2. Possibly - I am also a fan of Piquet Field of Battle as well.

      I have never found FOC that chaotic - you have deck of cards with possible 1-3 actions and the deck is slightly modified to match your leaders abilities. But you will get 3 actions sometimes and 1 action others but unlike rolling a dice the number of actions available will be similar to your opponent over the life of the deck.

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    3. OK! Piquet! That is all I need to know...

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  15. Hi Jon - I kind of agree with Mike above - it depends how much you want to depart from the original intent of the designers, I guess? I think I alluded to it in my previous comment, but I did find these rules frustrating, as the players had quite a lack of control - but maybe that's how medieval leaders felt during battles?

    I think your proposal may go too far the other way - how about this sequence

    Check command.
    Resolve personal challenges.
    Roll to determine accepted orders.
    Choose Aggression Levels.
    Draw one Action Card to determine the number of actions available.
    Execute orders.

    This way, you would retain the original tension of not knowing how many actions will be available to execute your orders, a key part of the mechanism in these rules.

    In Marks house rules that we generally use at Barrys Sunday games, you have to announce any charges at the start of the turn, before you roll for initiative - this means, sometimes, you have to gamble you will roll well enough to get time and a half, or the charge will fall short. Or, if you roll very poorly, you may only get a half move and fail to make a charge you had every expectation of achieving. I think that's the "friction" FoC are trying to create - the armies of the Middle Ages were probably less disciplined and prone to not doing exactly what their commanders wished than professional soldiers of the 18th and 19th centuries?

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    1. Thanks for the follow up, Keith. Rolling for order acceptance cannot be placed before the choice of Aggression Level since that choice drives the column used in the order table. Maybe Medieval leadership was this chaotic? If so, not sure I’d ever want to bring an army onto the field.

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  16. Thought the game seemed a bit brutal in Richards write up but hey thats medieval warfare, command and control wasnt terribly well developed, no staff, charge in and hope for the best and keep an eye out for simeone stabbing you in the back, lovely period! Also ,its the same for both sides, isnt it?
    Best Iain

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    1. That game WAS brutal! The earlier game was just as hard. It is not quite the same for both sides since leader quality may be different and order acceptance and action allowances are both random.

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  17. Superb stuff, Jonathan! Excellent debate in the comments, too. Moving that action-card draw up a notch seems like a dead sensible tweak to give players a bit more agency without breaking the game.

    All the best, Andy

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    1. Thanks, Andy! Well, a slight change makes sense to me. The commentary always is most insightful and allows me to see the topic from different perspectives.

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  18. Well argued points, Jonathan. It would certainly be worth trying your suggested turn sequence change.

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