tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post605320829560008134..comments2024-03-28T14:43:42.122-07:00Comments on Palouse Wargaming Journal: GWS2020: Game Period, Type, and Figure Size, Oh My!Jonathan Freitaghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-31015939469795802842020-11-24T11:26:05.935-08:002020-11-24T11:26:05.935-08:00Thanks for you comments and furthering the discuss...Thanks for you comments and furthering the discussion, Graham!<br /><br />WSS may skew towards the 25mm-28mm size of figures but figure manufacturers seem to skew in that same direction. Much of the new historical releases are coming into the market at these sizes. One needs only look to at Warlord or Perry (to name a few) to see this trend.<br /><br />Self-selection is unavoidable in this type of survey where all-comers are invited to participate. Given that WSS has a primary focus on historicals (from what I see) and that about half of the survey respondents classify themselves as primarily non-historical gamers, there is a lot of cross-over that may counter any selection bias.<br /><br />As for WWII gaming, examining the survey responses suggests figure size for gaming this period is definitely driven by age. Old wargamers like you and I grew up wargaming WWII primarily in the 20mm and under figure size. Well, at least I did and it sounds as if you did as well. You will likely see this manifest itself in the follow-up to this post when I throw age into the variable mix. There is a good sample of respondents from these older age groups so they are not getting missed in the survey.<br /><br />Given the number of respondents with questions and comments about gaming in these under 25mm figure sizes, I think digging deeper into these less represented sizes or scales is worth a look. I imagine you would be interested in seeing how your 20mm or 1/72 plastics fit into the hierarchy of the hobby. We may discover that our hobby interests are in the tail-ends of the "normal" curve. <br /><br />Again, your insights much appreciated.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-27624990903264641622020-11-24T10:01:04.235-08:002020-11-24T10:01:04.235-08:00Some of the results surprise me still. 11,000 is a...Some of the results surprise me still. 11,000 is a big sample size, but I do have a concern that WSS does skew towards bigger figures in its articles and readership, as far as I can tell, so there is self selection going on. For example, my experience of WW2 gamers is that they favour smaller scales, 15mm and so on, with 20mm at the top end. The subset of WW2 gamers, those who play Bolt Action, for example, use 28mm figures and play skirmish games is quite large, but in the total population of all wargamers with WW2 toys in the cupboard are they significant. I will admit to not being an expert on consumer surveys, but I know in other product research there's a need to "normalise" the respondent base so results aren't skewed by an asymptomatic sample base, and I don't know if that is possible here.Trebianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221916804339000102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-46973392204265133362020-11-24T08:18:45.428-08:002020-11-24T08:18:45.428-08:00You’re welcome!You’re welcome!Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-82830615287576213902020-11-24T08:13:37.928-08:002020-11-24T08:13:37.928-08:00Thanks for the work Jonathan, interesting reading....Thanks for the work Jonathan, interesting reading.George Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02622222875110390888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-64061394658481137172020-11-24T06:25:01.971-08:002020-11-24T06:25:01.971-08:00Given that you made it through the analysis withou...Given that you made it through the analysis without tossing it aside suggests no density on your part but curiosity.Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-6383825584025203702020-11-23T21:26:26.604-08:002020-11-23T21:26:26.604-08:00Don’t worry about it Jonathan. I’m sure I’m just ...Don’t worry about it Jonathan. I’m sure I’m just being dense this time around. It’s not the fault of the writer but the reader. 😀<br />It wouldn’t be the first time that I wasn’t the smartest person in the room. Happens quite a bit actually...I’ve admitted too much! 😀Stewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00340930167419307092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-37280646975930079772020-11-23T16:52:51.804-08:002020-11-23T16:52:51.804-08:00Thank you, Ross! Very good to see that you enjoye...Thank you, Ross! Very good to see that you enjoyed this installment of the survey analysis.<br /><br />You have many varied interests. As you attest, the variety in game types, game periods, and figure scales all combine to make for almost endless gaming possibilities. One reason this is such a wonderful hobby.<br /><br />As for the debate over plastic v metal, we may begin seeing a change-over to plastics in the smaller scales although 20mm and 1/72nd have always focused on the plastic as a material theme.<br /><br />Like you, I likely have more time behind than in front of me but I still have the drive to tackle new periods on a regular basis. The enjoyment derived from painting, for me, it a large part of the hobby. I really strive to get more gaming in, though.<br /><br />Finally, seeing that you began in 1/72 and returned to 20mm WWII, I plan to pull this figure size out and look at it in isolation. While it is not the most popular by today's standards, many have lamented the absence of 1/72 or 20mm in these analyses. It might be very interesting to breakdown the responses for those wargamers choosing this figure size as their preferred scale.<br /><br />Ramble all you want! I enjoy reading every word detailing your interesting journey through the hobby. Others do too! Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-1555830981165026942020-11-23T15:21:16.652-08:002020-11-23T15:21:16.652-08:00Enjoyed this topic Jonathan and your analysis is i...Enjoyed this topic Jonathan and your analysis is intriguing. <br /><br />I find myself sitting between scales, periods and game styles for most things. <br /><br />As we have discussed I originally started painting in 1/72nd scale with Airfix then moved up in scale for a while then the settled on 25/28mm for years. Then the move from fantasy to historical games and with that a return to 20mm for WW2 and new scales to suit different periods. That said I have some periods in multiple scales as I enjoy both the difference in gaming and painting these periods. Both are also affected by other gamers/painters and their availability in the local area.<br /><br />My varied interests are reflected in your analysis of the survey as are my intrepretations of skirmish, scenario and big battle. Often a skirmish game will be scenario based as can big battles be and yet both can be just for the fun of it. <br /><br />Change the scale within the period and the results are very different. Big battle Shieldwall games can be seen as the scrum of warfare rather than dashing movement and rapid movement of other troop types in other periods. That said skirmish based Dark Age gaming is a different beast and whilst the shieldwall can be used, the difference in scale changes the style of gaming.<br /><br />An interesting point here in my restricted opinion is when someone uses a different scale than the recommended for particular ruleset, for example SAGA played in 6mm with each base having more than 1 figure eg 4 Harthguards per base, has a very different visual feel. 32 figures becomes 128 plus and the warband has grown without a substiantial change in rules and playing area required. <br /><br />Plastic versus metal will come into this in the future especially with plastic 15mm ancients on the market and when will the 15/18mm plastic Napoleonics follow?<br /><br />My last comment on both scale and game type lies firmly rooted in time. The time you have to paint, game and hobby in general versus the time you have spent on this earth. With my half century in the former is limited in that if I paint I don't game and vice-a-versa. Regarding how many more years I have on this earth; it should be plenty as the last figure of the lead pile ain't been painted yet. <br /><br />Thanks again Jonathan your analysis is more detailed and specific than my ramblings.<br /><br />Cheers, Rossroma912https://www.blogger.com/profile/10874596915202957037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-35600947342744745192020-11-23T13:42:13.697-08:002020-11-23T13:42:13.697-08:00You are welcome, Matt!
A agree with you that the ...You are welcome, Matt!<br /><br />A agree with you that the questions could be improved by some tightening of the verbiage to reduce ambiguity. I do not know much about the non-historical side of the hobby so I cannot say combining Warhammer and Sci-Fi into one category makes sense. My hunch is that Star Wars figures are moving the Sci-Fi genre up the charts as you say. I even picked up a core set!<br /><br />We will see if this topic makes it into a WSS podcast. The Plastics v Metal debate did!Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-78533599881232676442020-11-23T12:59:01.547-08:002020-11-23T12:59:01.547-08:00Interesting thanks Johnathon,
For me no real big ...Interesting thanks Johnathon,<br /><br />For me no real big surprises.<br /><br />I think the bias comes in some ways from the questions, the skirmish one being the main challenge, what dictates a skirmish number of figures figures or the figure ratio? Skirmish for me is under 30 figures, anything over is tactical, and I guess most wargamers would say up to 60 is skirmish. Skirmish is popular predominately because it is a cheap option and room, as many people live in apartments now, so a 4x4 (1.2x1.2m) table can fit on a regular dining table. <br /><br />The second question Is for Sci-fi, it should be lumped in with the 40k universe there too, so if you take away 40k as a response it would give a better reflection of where the scifi period really sits. Personally I think Star Wars figures and ships really has moved it up the charts ( yes I purchased both these shiney products) <br /><br /><br />For me as I play across most genres, but predominantly historical in 28mm because I like to paint and have the luxury of a 5m table in my dedicated "Salon de Guerre" wargames room. <br /><br />Interested to listen to the WSS podcasts with thier thoughts.<br /><br />Cheers<br />MattBluewillowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08826519858479170953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-77051546823685326482020-11-23T07:40:56.085-08:002020-11-23T07:40:56.085-08:00Stew! Very pleased to see that you enjoy these da...Stew! Very pleased to see that you enjoy these data dives even when I fail in my attempt to make the analysis understandable. That shows determination on your part! Good to see that the discussion helps in clarifying pieces of the work. I try to lay out the groundwork in the hope that reader comments will help drive an interesting and insightful discussion. Readers have not let me down yet.<br /><br />Don't hesitate in asking for clarification or a better explanation if what I present fails to make sense. I will try to do a better job in my explanations.Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-22653944070444240772020-11-23T07:01:20.650-08:002020-11-23T07:01:20.650-08:00This one I had a harder time understanding and I’m...This one I had a harder time understanding and I’m not sure if I totally got it. I still enjoyed the post very much as I do all these data dives and I think these are useful for just letting us talk about the hobby intelligently. (Just not me in this particular case but I’ll allow that I haven’t finished my morning coffee). Reading the comments of others helped a lot. 😀<br />Next time I’m gonna have to record my answers to the survey so I can remember what I did, so I can compare myself to these trends and know if I’m a sheep or a goat. <br />Keep up the great job my friend. 😀 Stewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00340930167419307092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-30079863433294947022020-11-23T06:08:21.933-08:002020-11-23T06:08:21.933-08:00Steve, there certainly could be responder bias bui...Steve, there certainly could be responder bias built into the survey responses but the analyses, thus far, suggest that the narrative being built is a reasonable and believable one.<br /><br />I am surprised by the dominance of 25/28/Heroics too. With the never-ending stream of new products and figures in these sizes, they sizes must hold popularity among the masses.<br /><br />You make a good point about the difficulty of ranking one's interests in a strict monotonic way. I know, some topics hold high interest. One benefit to changing to ranked ordering in 2020 is that relationships over preference across different facets of the hobby can be measured. When I first began examining the data in the 2019 survey, you would be surprised how many respondents rated many questions with high (or low) ratings across multiple categories. This change was an attempt to refine and clarify any information coming out of the survey. Certainly something to consider how to approach in the 2021 survey.<br /><br />Thanks so much for your continued interest and contributions to these topics!Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-33563771358561787072020-11-23T06:00:06.131-08:002020-11-23T06:00:06.131-08:00Good to see you continue enjoying these seemingly,...Good to see you continue enjoying these seemingly, never-ending look into the survey results, Keith. Trust me, topics will not run out anytime soon.<br /><br />As we have seen in previous analyses, age plays a role in which game period one chooses as well as figure material. Age affects much in the study. Are you suggesting gaming with 15mm figures is an old man's game? I know I am getting up into the "old man" category and have a number of large collections in 15mm. One of which is FRW but I have at least five others including Empire-period Napoleonics, SYW, AWI, Feudal Japan, WWII, and Franco-Austrian War. Did I leave any out? Probably. Mine are meant for big battle gaming something that seems to be falling out of favor.<br /><br />Thanks a lot for your contribution to the discussion and your insights! Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-71489888636375469722020-11-23T05:52:39.296-08:002020-11-23T05:52:39.296-08:00Quite right! Today it is easy to find wargamers o...Quite right! Today it is easy to find wargamers of similar interests with which to share your common style of gaming. Your primary interests, no matter how esoteric to the mainstream, seem to garner much attention and remain very popular to a few. That is an interesting observation, Ross. Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-439246351891107862020-11-23T05:31:26.617-08:002020-11-23T05:31:26.617-08:00All true, but its also a reflection of the impact ...All true, but its also a reflection of the impact of the net where one can be a part of a vibrant community of, lets say Colonial gamers or big figure gamers and it feels like popular because that's what everyone on THAT forum is "talking" about and playing but its actually a few score amongst thousands of unseen, unheard gamers doing other things and chatting on other forums or threads and who are out of your sight and mind.<br /><br /> Internet + conventions changes the experience from the days when all of the local gamers you know were playing something other than what you wanted (<i>keeping in mind that one's interests often change over time </i>) so you join in to be part of it or go solo.Ross Mac rmacfa@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04053555991679802013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-27856125378664743722020-11-22T23:03:57.811-08:002020-11-22T23:03:57.811-08:00More very interesting analysis Jonathan. I think i...More very interesting analysis Jonathan. I think it once again confirms the massive dominance of 28mm gaming in our hobby, or certainly of those that chose to respond, which is something to consider of course. This was a surprise to me at first, but seeing skirmish gaming is so popular (and I would include Warhammer 40K in that category) it is no longer a surprise.<br /><br />The split between Warhammer 40K and Sci-Fi is a surprise, but as explained above, it is almost a case of 'East is East' etc.<br /><br />As has been discussed before, the questions this year I thought made it harder to give an accurate view of my hobby in terms of periods gamed, figure sizes used etc as I couldn't give them equal weight.<br /><br />Despite this it is a useful snap shot of our hobby, but I do think the questions could be better for next year and, in an ideal World, kept the same year on year to get a proper view of trends, or not, in our hobby.<br /><br />Keep up the good work as it's always interesting to read the breakdown from the data.Steve J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12143308117853983963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-60180295935559337882020-11-22T22:13:43.276-08:002020-11-22T22:13:43.276-08:00More great analysis Jonathan. A couple of things &...More great analysis Jonathan. A couple of things "surprise" me I guess. Firstly, as mentioned by others, the fact that so many respondents obviously draw a distinction between 40K and Sci Fi! What do they think 40k is - the real future?! Anyway, Iain has probably supplied a pretty valid reason why this is so. Personally, and looking at most of the blogs I check out regularly, I am surprised 15mm leads in any sphere. To me, it will be interesting to see if this is age related. 15mm was really in vogue in the 80's, when a lot of people appreciated the economic value of large armies of smaller scale figures - I even had a small force of Minifigs ECW at that time - but apart from that, the only 15mm figures I ever owned are a large ish WW2 collection of FoW and Command Decision - which have been only very rarely used. I know you for example have the Revolutionary France period in 15mm and possibly others too, but I dont see a lot of evidence on the blogs that 15mm is still a popular scale - I wonder about whether its tied to the type of gaming (large battles) or the age of the players? Of course, it may be hard to tell for sure. as I seem to remember large scale historical gaming was the preference of older gamers, so those two may very well tie in to indicate older players prefer 15mm - but do they prefer the scale, or the larger battles that the scale enables them to fight? Some people are pure gamers, and happy to use wooden blocks - which is anathema to me - thats why I am not particularly interested in board games - I want toy soldiers to play with, and the prettier the better, so larger scales allow for more aesthetically pleasing armies....rrosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316317334203888350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-50792663696333753182020-11-22T13:48:46.796-08:002020-11-22T13:48:46.796-08:00Norm, the questions addressed in these analyses al...Norm, the questions addressed in these analyses all had choices with a ranked order. That is, "Rank your choices from 1 to n." In this study, I looked primarily at a gamer's top choice to (hopefully) provide the most meaningful and cleanest result.<br /><br />The dominance of 25mm/28mm/Heroic is always a surprising one to me too. Given that I enjoy many different figure sizes dependent upon the level of game being played, having much of the respondents with most of their eggs in this one basket is a revelation.<br /><br />The survey did ask a related question to the "Are you are wargamer/collector/painter?" by asking the respondent to rank the top three things most enjoyed about the hobby. At some point, I will dive into that question keeping your thoughts in mind.<br /><br />Thanks for your comments!Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-34537497167783591392020-11-22T11:06:35.712-08:002020-11-22T11:06:35.712-08:00An interesting way to present the stats into somet...An interesting way to present the stats into something tangible. Like several commentators here, the Napoleonic 15/18mm relationships seems quite natural, but the WH40k v Sci-Fi gap surprised me. <br /><br />I like Iain’s thoughts that this might be demonstrating the GW fan base as much as anything, but it does (for the first time) make me appreciate the importance of the proper questions being asked in the first place.<br /><br />I can’t remember now whether the survey was more biased towards definitive either / or answers or whether they had a smoother ‘what are your top 3 favourite flavour’ type question, with the later perhaps producing more data points, but giving a more smoothed out result.<br /><br />My biggest surprise is the absolute dominance of 25-28 / heroic, which if rolled into 1 total figure (and why not because there must be a mindset coalescence of sorts compared to other scales in the same way that 6mm and 10mm are kissing cousins) would be incredible dominance of the scale scene.<br /><br />Did the survey ask whether a person was a wargamer or collector or painter? It wouldn’t be a surprise which scales those groups gravitate towards, but the raw numbers of the groups would be interesting as would the interplay on favoured period.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-89342328153012597302020-11-22T10:21:38.913-08:002020-11-22T10:21:38.913-08:00You could be correct about WH40k players viewing b...You could be correct about WH40k players viewing big battles differently than historical gamers. The survey defines "Big Battle" as having hundreds of figures per side. To me, that is barely a skirmish!Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-55093833085440557612020-11-22T10:17:59.244-08:002020-11-22T10:17:59.244-08:00Ross, your interests comprise a small piece of the...Ross, your interests comprise a small piece of the big picture. I think many of us, over time, have developed our own niches and specialties that may not appeal the the broad, unwashed masses.<br /><br />Looking back 20 or 30 years ago, we would have been lamenting the graying of the hobby and the impending death to historical wargaming. Wait! Some things never change...Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-35062507900768132312020-11-22T10:13:51.028-08:002020-11-22T10:13:51.028-08:00Sensible to me too, Peter. The more I slice and d...Sensible to me too, Peter. The more I slice and dice the survey data, for more my confidence grows in its integrity even though it was not drawn randomly.<br /><br />We are diverse bunch, for sure. We are niches within niches.Jonathan Freitaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862373894196924886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-40994780952746834682020-11-22T09:59:27.366-08:002020-11-22T09:59:27.366-08:00"Notice also that Warhammer40k tends toward C...<i>"Notice also that Warhammer40k tends toward Campaign and Big Battle gaming over Skirmish gaming."</i><br />I find this statement rather interesting. I think that possibly 40K players define 'Big Battle' differently than historical players. For them/us a Big Battle could be 300 figures aside on 4 by 6 table whereas a big Napoleonic battle could easily exceed a thousand figures aside on a 6 by 12 table (or simultaneous action on three or 4 tables).<br />Really, for me, regardless of figure count, based on the nature of the rules, 40K is a more like a skirmish game on steroids than a big battle game.Codstickerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02899018919527308863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2267180105171392028.post-51491429344056508472020-11-22T08:44:29.810-08:002020-11-22T08:44:29.810-08:00No wonder I feel so out of touch with the hobby! (...No wonder I feel so out of touch with the hobby! (<i>I don't get reflected here anywhere! Except that I used to do 15mm Fr Rev & Naps - still get to play with some of those when their new owner runs a club game </i>)<br /><br />Interesting though, not what I would have predicted 20 or 30 years ago! (<i>Now, where's my rocker.....</i>)Ross Mac rmacfa@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04053555991679802013noreply@blogger.com